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Jan. 27th, 2014 04:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
stormdogI posted a link in Facebook to this silly comic about the "friend zone" concept and why it's flawed as explained by people in ridiculous costumes with super hero and villain names.
http://imgur.com/a/RmAjE
Someone responded and argued that the comic is "full of it" and explained why he thought so. I wrote a response that I think I'll post here.
Do you think that a lot of men who think in these terms simply aren't putting themselves in the position of being the recipient of this kind of 'nice-guyness'? 'Cause when I do, the creepiness seems kind of obvious.
---
I do realize that the cartoon is a bit over the top. Since the main characters are cape-bedecked super heroes/villians with ridiculous names, I was ok with that as a way of taking things to a logical extreme. That aside, here are my thoughts on your comments.
You talk about the comic's assumption that nice guys just want sex. I don't see this as about sex as much as I see it as about relationships.
I don't see a big difference between being nice and being extra-special nice. If a friend goes out of their way to do something nice for me, more than even seems natural within a friendly relationship, it's really sweet. I still remember, years later, a friend I worked with who took a special trip at lunch to try to find me some ice cream I really liked when I was feeling down. It was sweet and memorable.
But if someone is doing that all the time, I think it becomes a little weird. I'd start wondering why this person seems to be fawning over me. I'd even be uncomfortable if I didn't feel like I deserved the attention. I think rather than trying to indicate an interest in a relationship by being extra super nice, it would be better to merely directly state one's interest in a relationship.
I realize that that's kind of a scary and tricky thing to do. I have to judge when there's enough familiarity for it to not be creepy. I have to take a chance that the person I'm asking will react negatively, or that the character of the existing relationship of friendship will change in a way that I don't want it to. (I don't see why that needs to happen; I'd be fine with a negative response and could continue enjoy being friends, but some people don't seem to feel that way.)
I think that there's some level of popular belief that this kind of direct communication about what both parties do and do not want in a relationship is unromantic. I think It's good communication. Unless I directly state that I'm interested in a romantic relationship, I can't expect the person I'm talking to to just figure it out via me being extra super nice to them.
I'm not sure what you mean by earning a chance to prove that they'll both be happier in a relationship. It sounds like you're saying that by being super nice to a person, I should be able to earn a chance to try being in a relationship with that person. That makes me uncomfortable because I wouldn't ever want to feel that I was in that position. I don't like the idea that someone can do some arbitrary quantity of really nice things for me and thus be entitled to try to date me. There are some strange power imbalances inherent in that scheme, and it puts me in a very passive position that could easily result in me having to do something I don't want to do and that makes me uncomfortable. Either rejection or acceptance of a romantic advance made under those circumstances and with that expectation makes me uncomfortable.
The idea that nice guys are really just assholes looking for sex is clearly untrue. It's black and white, and black and white presentations of a situation are almost never true. On the other hand, I really think the great majority of men think that they're nice guys. Therefore, the majority of men who make a romantic advance and are rejected are going to be self-described nice guys. The guys who other nice guys look at and think are rude, thoughtless, or self-centered? They probably think they're nice guys too. It's a very subjective thing.
At heart, I feel like if I were to begin believing that some quality or qualities in my own nature, be it nice-guyness or anything else, entitles me to expect that anyone ought to try dating me or otherwise be in a relationship with me, then I'm disparaging their autonomy as an individual. My belief in my own worthiness as a romantic partner shouldn't and doesn't override anyone else's evaluation of me as a romantic partner *for them*.
http://imgur.com/a/RmAjE
Someone responded and argued that the comic is "full of it" and explained why he thought so. I wrote a response that I think I'll post here.
Do you think that a lot of men who think in these terms simply aren't putting themselves in the position of being the recipient of this kind of 'nice-guyness'? 'Cause when I do, the creepiness seems kind of obvious.
---
I do realize that the cartoon is a bit over the top. Since the main characters are cape-bedecked super heroes/villians with ridiculous names, I was ok with that as a way of taking things to a logical extreme. That aside, here are my thoughts on your comments.
You talk about the comic's assumption that nice guys just want sex. I don't see this as about sex as much as I see it as about relationships.
I don't see a big difference between being nice and being extra-special nice. If a friend goes out of their way to do something nice for me, more than even seems natural within a friendly relationship, it's really sweet. I still remember, years later, a friend I worked with who took a special trip at lunch to try to find me some ice cream I really liked when I was feeling down. It was sweet and memorable.
But if someone is doing that all the time, I think it becomes a little weird. I'd start wondering why this person seems to be fawning over me. I'd even be uncomfortable if I didn't feel like I deserved the attention. I think rather than trying to indicate an interest in a relationship by being extra super nice, it would be better to merely directly state one's interest in a relationship.
I realize that that's kind of a scary and tricky thing to do. I have to judge when there's enough familiarity for it to not be creepy. I have to take a chance that the person I'm asking will react negatively, or that the character of the existing relationship of friendship will change in a way that I don't want it to. (I don't see why that needs to happen; I'd be fine with a negative response and could continue enjoy being friends, but some people don't seem to feel that way.)
I think that there's some level of popular belief that this kind of direct communication about what both parties do and do not want in a relationship is unromantic. I think It's good communication. Unless I directly state that I'm interested in a romantic relationship, I can't expect the person I'm talking to to just figure it out via me being extra super nice to them.
I'm not sure what you mean by earning a chance to prove that they'll both be happier in a relationship. It sounds like you're saying that by being super nice to a person, I should be able to earn a chance to try being in a relationship with that person. That makes me uncomfortable because I wouldn't ever want to feel that I was in that position. I don't like the idea that someone can do some arbitrary quantity of really nice things for me and thus be entitled to try to date me. There are some strange power imbalances inherent in that scheme, and it puts me in a very passive position that could easily result in me having to do something I don't want to do and that makes me uncomfortable. Either rejection or acceptance of a romantic advance made under those circumstances and with that expectation makes me uncomfortable.
The idea that nice guys are really just assholes looking for sex is clearly untrue. It's black and white, and black and white presentations of a situation are almost never true. On the other hand, I really think the great majority of men think that they're nice guys. Therefore, the majority of men who make a romantic advance and are rejected are going to be self-described nice guys. The guys who other nice guys look at and think are rude, thoughtless, or self-centered? They probably think they're nice guys too. It's a very subjective thing.
At heart, I feel like if I were to begin believing that some quality or qualities in my own nature, be it nice-guyness or anything else, entitles me to expect that anyone ought to try dating me or otherwise be in a relationship with me, then I'm disparaging their autonomy as an individual. My belief in my own worthiness as a romantic partner shouldn't and doesn't override anyone else's evaluation of me as a romantic partner *for them*.
